re:Re: Not in solidarity with Peruvian hostage takers

Joey Joe (
Mon, 23 Dec 1996 13:21:36 -0400 (GMT-0400)

> first: if you compare the peruian guerrilla with the state-capitalist regimes
> that broke down in eastern europe, you should tell us the reasons for, you
> should prove that they are dogmatic marxists.
> two: but even if they are: so long as they do not terrorise all people that
> do not agree with their ideologie, so long as they do not act like the
> terrorists of shining path (pol-pot-style), i see no reason why we should not
> be solidarian (if you take of all solidarity in this case, on the
> informations we got at the moment, this means standing on the other side of
> the barricade together with the terroristic state officialls of peru, with
> the multinational capitalists and the supporting ruling class media).
> three: what is terrorism? real terrorism is "acting and calculating with the
> fear of the masses" (dictionary definition), that means careless violence
> against various victims (that means for example bombs on public places where
> it could hit and kill everyone). you may call the case of taking hostages in
> the japanese embassy violence (for you condamnable violence), but you can not
> call this terrorism.
> oh the poor, poor victims...the poor, poor families. sorry harry, i can not
> hide answering your cynism with some irony. it seems that the guerrilla let
> those people free who are less responsable for the horrible things that went
> on in peru. you are so carefull about the poor hostages and their families -
> that seems to be cynistic against their victims (tousands of tortured and
> killed workers, peasants, prisoners...) and their families. would you like to
> found a society for the saving massmuderers? (i think there is no need to
> tell you what the politics of the so-called poor victims mean for the most
> peruanian people...)
> harrys statement "it does not matter who people are and what they have done"
> is maybe a high-etical theory, but it got nothing to do with realities. and
> also the formulation is wrong - it would be better to say: "What they
> cont inue to do!" because this makes an important difference
(especially for > their victims!).
> i would tell you an example here: Trus Menger, a woman who fought against the
> nazi-occupators in the nederlands, told on a anti-fashist-meating about 4
> years ago:
> they would not kill some people just because they wear the uniform of the
> enemy. so they try to find out who are the worst ss-murderer are. if they
> found out they killed him by bomb or shooting. she told, that for exaple, one
> who took a jewish child on the feet and kills it by smashing its head to the
> wall, got no right to live in her eyes and that it is not a statement of past
> years, she told that this would be her opinion even nowadays.
> i did not know, how i would act in a similar situation, but i agree with her
> position. and this got nothing to do with undiffernt slaughter or arbitrary
> judgings. it is a very big differnce wheater you are "in power" or not (means
> that you oppose against a repressive regime). the continuance is very
> important here: if you do not kill this pig, he will continue his doing! if
> you got the choice to end his life and you did not, are you not responsable
> for his further doings, killings...
> i would like to hear your alternatives in this special case. and: can you not
> imagine similar situations in peru, kurdistan, mexico, elsewhere...?
> how is your oppinion about the EZLN in mexico? it is clear that you can not
> prejudice them as dogmatic marxists or whatelse, but they are not principally
> pacifists...
> harry:
> "-I hope this incident does not end in bloodshed. As an anarchist I believe
> -that the end does not justify the means. Instead that the means determine
> -the end. You cannot make a freer society, one in which everyone, can
> -determine for themselves their future, from a heap of corpses.
> -I would have thought the sort of simple minded knee jerk response of right
> -on the guerrillas belonged on a Marxist mailing list. One posting
> -suggesting;"
> "---'We cannot judge the tactics used by people in their own countries in
> ----their own struggle to make their own lives better."'
> -Why the hell not? If we have no ethical basis for our politics then what do
> -we have to offer that's different from the opportunism of the left and the
> -greed and power plays of the state and capital. What is needed is a new kind
> -of politics that genuinely respects human life and the aspirations of
> -ordinary people not a rerun of Castroite bullshit
> Harry Robinson
> as i told in the chapter befor, i can not genuiely respect the human life of
> massmuderer, especially not while they are in power. the aims of you, harry,
> are high-ethical but quite naive and hardly to realize in real struggle for
> the ending of states, corporations and repressive power. i do not believe
> that it is possible to "pray" or "laugh" all the state and corporations
> leeders away, as much as i believe that indifferent violence brings no
> anarchist revolution.
> i think you got no right to judge the tactics of people in their own country
> until you did not do your possible tactics under the same circumstances
> (sure, red kmer or shining path are special cases). in your case that means:
> go to peru and act there pacifistic with a look for the rights of the
> muderers. than you can judge the once who do it otherway. it is oh so easy
> for us as (mainly) white-arsed first-world anarchists sitting on it and
> typing clever statements how the people that being exploited from systems and
> corporations in our countries should act. this sounds like colonization even
> in addition with anarchistic ideologie.
> the main question that we should ask ourselvers is not "how some groups in
> the exploited countries act", more important is "what do we do against the
> worldwide exploitation and repression of people everywhere?"
> What are you doing against your neo-liberal governments, against GM, Siemens,
> Nestle, Montesano, Ciba-Geigy, Coca-Cola, Uni-Lever, Mercedes-Benz,
> Mitsubishi...
> i could write a book about harrys nice "splitting the whole world in black
> and white", but so far... i hope for more discussions on such things...
> wishes
> a.p.
Can't agree with you more.
I can talk to you all with a diferent perspective(non white first world
country). First of all i'm from Puerto Rico and in case you don't know
we are strugling to become a non colonialst country. The U.S. military
intervension since 1898 has been a simbol of Imperialism for almost a
whole century. I know what has been to be persecuted for your beliefs. So
do my parents. The represion that "Independentistas" wen't thru to a
certain level is more or less the same as in Latin America but in a much
smaller scale. Curretly there are 15 political prisoners and POW's
carriying absurd sentences in federal prisons. Our strougle hasen't been
an esay one. The state has found more sofisticated ways than crude
represion to keep political activities to a minimum. So i firmly beleive
that the people, as means for self defense can incurr in actions of
violence and this should be maraly acceptable. I've meet many Peruvians
students. Most of them are either dead, imprisoned or underground. I've
had to hear their plea for solidfarity when the military occupied all the
Peruvians univrsities. I've had to comfort fiends when they were in Cuba
cause they needed to hide because they were wanted by local authorities
for their political activities. Activities that we beleive should go on.
When you are tired of trying to be pacifist. when your tired of having
your friends killed, tortured, vanished and improsoned. what can you do?
March to a state building and have the shit kicked out of you, have dogs
byte you, get shot, loose your friends, lovers, mothers, brothers,
What then.....Not much huh?
In 1936 and 37 puertorricans nationalist were killed for a peaceful
manifestation of national afirmation. In the 60's and 70's the state
crushed many reivindicative movements wich we try to keep alive. In 78 2
university students were masacerd for being independentistas. In the 80's
students were imprisoned and beaten because they demanded that education
was a right and not a privilige. Now we struggle to try to keep the us
military to grow in the island. The souther command wants to come here.
These are the same troops that invaded grenada, panama and haiti and
probably any other latin american or carribean country. We want our
political prisoners to come home. If by pacifist means that doent happen
what options do we have. What option does the IRA in its beginings had
when the loyalists burned irish catholics out of nother ireland. What do
you do. ?
Pray? March? What? an e-mail maybe?
I firmly beleive that people have the right to do what they think is the
best way to get things done. We have a lot to learn about what not to do.
But let's analize whats going on in Peru. This isn't indicrmiminate
bombings of public buildings . This isn't an Oklahoma bomb or an airplain
getting hijaked. This is the seizure of an embasy. The embasadors
represents their country. They are their county's mediator in that area.
The MRTA have released more than half their original hostages. What does
that say? They are not cold blodded terrorist like some people here
suggest. They haven't killed anyone so far. When you kidnape an
embassador its a statement to the country this embassador represents.
An embassador isn't an ordinary citizen. Embassadors have established
authoritarian and dictatorial regimes like the one in Peru and practicaly
all of the latinamerican country's. Embassador aid and help the local
goverment to keep a stable political system. By any means necesary. In
this case a bunch of organized peruvians got tired of simulating
When tyranny is law revolution is order.
....Oh by the way some anarchist belive the assasination of political
leaders is a way to distabalize the state...
Josefo >

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